A typeface creator, a Type Designers, a typeface user, a binding house, and a seller, an editor.


Chikako Suzuki, who is a bookmaker such as "Ikirimoto" and "Moneybook", whose bookbinding has been very talked about, Manabu Koyanagi of the publishing company of the right and left, and the Type Designers who is the creator of Chikushi typeface. Shigenobu Fujita.
We have realized a three-way conversation in different positions, which we met mainly in the Chikushi typeface.

Left: Manabu Koyanagi

Born in Hokkaido in 1958. After graduating from university, he joined Shinshokan and was the editor-in-chief of "Dance Magazine" and the deputy editor of the thought magazine "Great Voyage".
After leaving the company, he was the editor-in-chief of the quarterly "d / SIGN". In 2005, he established the left and right companies and continues to the present.
From 2006 to 2010, he was in charge of the "selling books" section in the Asahi Shimbun book review section.
His book is "A book that makes Kenji Miyazawa so interesting" (Chukei Publishing).

Right: Chikako Suzuki

graphic designer.
Born in 1983. Graduated from Musashino Art University, Department of Design Information.
Enrolled in Bunpei Ginza since 2007 and has been freelance since 2015.
Engaged in design work such as binding.

Middle: Shigenobu Fujita

Born in Fukuoka Prefecture in 1957. Graduated from Chikuyo Gakuen High School Design Department.
Joined Shaken Character Design Department of Phototypesetting Machine Co., Ltd. in 1975.
Fontworks Inc. in 1998 and developed many typefaces including Tsukushi typeface.
In 2016, appeared on NHK "Professional Work Style".
Received the 2010 Tokyo TDC Award. Received the Tokyo TDC Award 2018 Type Design Award.

---

The encounter was "Tsukushi Mincho may not be suitable for novels."

--Please tell us about the encounters of the three people.

Fujita: I was with Mr. Koyanagi, who was the editor-in-chief of the quarterly "d/SIGN", at the time of interviewing Tsutomu Toda in No9. Koyanagi-san said on the way back to the station after the interview. Tsukushi Mincho L It's a perfect fit for this book! However, the word "But it's not suitable for novels!" has always been in my head.
In November of last year, a Fontworks Event "Moji Fes." was held for two days in Shibuya, and I was able to meet for the first time in over ten years because the left and right company was Shibuya. At that time, Mr. Suzuki, who is using a lot of Tsukushi typeface, came out and I came to this talk to meet him someday and listen.

Koyanagi: Did you say that? You said (laughs). Thank you for that time.

Fujita: Nice to meet you, Mr. Suzuki. That's right. Through Chikushi you can meet many people. I'm really happy.

Suzuki: Yes. Nice to meet you. However, I have been taking good care of the Tsukushi typeface for a long time. I Bunpei Ginza It's about the time I first started to go to.

Tsukushi Mincho alien nature of LB

Tsukushi Mincho has an image of L, but is it LB instead of L?

Suzuki: Text but because taught typefaces from where is I think quite different by the designer's, Yadorikifuji (Bunpei Mr.) is actually very Tsukushi Mincho LB I loved so much, so I learned to write the Text at Tsukushi Mincho LB.
At that time, Mr. Yoroto was making his own cross-type analysis table with typefaces distributed, and he always talked about how exquisitely balanced Tsukushi Mincho was made. I remember that very much.
Even now, of course, Tsukushi Mincho LB is a typeface that I feel very deep about, and it is a typeface that has a great presence.

Fujita: The LB is black, and because the horizontal image is thicker, the horizontal line does not fly even if it is outlined. But originally, I think it's just LB, which is fine. However, if you suddenly put out this as a normal weight L, a different feeling would appear in a general sense, so I decided to release L as a normal L and release it with a weight of LB. I personally like LB.

Suzuki: I also overwhelmly use only LB if it is L or LB. The LB in or was the person document Text I am using as a typeface. Even if you compare it with other typefaces, it seems that there is no balance in Weight.

Fujita: So is Mr. Sobue. LB, not L.
I was impressed with the fact that Minoran Motoran L was so modern in the era of Shaken, around 1975. It's urban, which is the exact opposite of rural customs and customs. Dry and easy relationships. Motoran Mincho doesn't have that kind of countryside feeling and is a city itself. Moreover, although it is L, I was fat because it was easy for horizontal images to fly with the automatic machine of Shaken at that time. Depending on the print, it looks like Mincho typefaces with fine Gothic scales. In particular, the horizontal line is intentionally thickened in the type called ILM, the old photo-editing version of Iwata Mincho. That feeling was very good. I want to make this kind of thing if I have the opportunity to make it someday. So Tsukushi Mincho was a reproduction of that kind of thing.
Tell Yorito this story. "And there's a guy who seems to have a lot more trouble, I'm thinking of developing it." he said, "That sounds interesting. Please make it." Later it was completed in Tsukushi Antique Mincho.

Recently, there is an increasing number of designs that are designed with a typeface such as "Mincho typeface with fine gothic scales" such as the Chikushi typeface. So, Mr. Sobue said, "The Hosyo dynasty, which has no difference in the Weight portrait and landscape, has become popular in the world."

The thin Mincho, which has little difference between portrait and landscape, has only intelligence as a view. I think that Tsukushi Mincho L and LB look like that. In contrast, in Tsukushi Old Mincho R, there is a clear difference in the Weight of the vertical and horizontal drawings. A sense of secularity drifts with intelligence.

The sense of distance from the reader is just right regardless of style.

Fujita: As Mr. Koyanagi once said, Tsukushi Mincho is more suitable for articles than novels. So I thought I needed a novel, Tsukushi B Mincho Was developed.
And Tsukushi Antique Mincho When I put it out, I was worried that it would be used by Text, but there are still walls.

Suzuki: I agree. I use it for Heading.

Fujita: Yes, you can use it for the cover, foreword and postscript, but it is rarely used in complete Text.

Koyanagi: For books that are somewhat conscious, I wonder if it is Chikushi. I think it is the typeface used for books I like. There are so many readers at the left and right companies who like books, so I think Chikushi is really there.

Suzuki: The distance with the reader is just right. I think you can read with a proper sense of distance. Whatever style it is.

Tsukushi Antique Mincho is the most powerful visual.

Tsukushi Antique Mincho Chikushi Q Mincho Is also used quite a bit.

Suzuki: At the time of binding, it is almost Tsukushi Mincho or Tsukushi Antique Mincho. Tsukushi Antique Mincho is also a strong visual, so I think it would be decided if it was changed at Tsukushi Antique Mincho. Because I have such power. There are places where I rely too much (laughs).

Suzuki: As for "Palm Hen Seijiki", it is an anthology, so the authors write it all the same. Also, since it is a yearbook, everyone is written according to the theme of the season. There is a door with that kind of tailoring, but when working on book design, I work on the Text before the cover, so when I made this door later, it seems that it fits the theme very much. I was pleased.

Fujita: I'm happy. Then, from the side of making fonts, I was very worried about what typeface was used here when there was no Tsukushi Antique Mincho or Chikushi Q Mincho. In that case, did you use the same typeface as the contents?

Suzuki: In that sense, the way of thinking may differ depending on the designer, but since the Text of the Text is often unified and constructed, there is also one way of thinking that the typeface of the Text the typeface of the door should be unified.
In the case of a door, it is the page that is the face of the whole, so I often use it with the typeface of the cover when binding it. As for the door. When that happens, what kind of letter the cover would have been in the days when there was no Tsukushi Antique Mincho, it is difficult. Perhaps, in this book, if you do not have a typeface, you have the option to write and write by yourself, so if there is only a door and a cover, you may do so now, thought.
Considering that, I was fascinated by the fact that it has great power as a visual.

Suzuki: For "Dancing constellation", I want to use this "Ru" from Chikuushi Q Mincho. This was completely decided in the form of "ru".

Looking at the letter "〆", I chose the Tsukushi Antique Mincho.

Fujita: The "deadline book" was quite shocking. The contents of this are showing up on the surface. This method is the Sugiura method. Mr. was a photograph and an illustration. The text inside was out, and I found it to be interesting.

Suzuki: At the time of the meeting, the editor said that I wanted to put a passage of "I can not write it ..." somewhere, but I was told that there are other interesting words, The first thing that came to my mind was that it would be more interesting if these words were in the foreground.
Sometimes it's a challenge to make words more meaningful by visualizing them.
When it comes to this cut-off book, there were many words that the authors had already sprung up, so I had power in itself.
Regarding the typeface, I looked at the letter "〆" and chose the Tsukushi Antique Mincho. "This is it!"

Fujita: Unexpectedly, the letters "〆" in any typeface are not interesting.

Koyanagi: There is a big difference depending on the typeface.

Fujita: When you are designing, if you design normally, it will be like this. But I thought it wasn't fun. It's cool to see the handwritten "〆" written on it. I was wondering if I could bring out this coolness even in the Mincho style.
The other typeface "〆" doesn't move much. The Chikushi typeface makes it possible to see the movements of the hand in strokes, so I think it looks cool.

Koyanagi: Mr. Suzuki's suggestion for the "end book" is designed with a lot of words from the artist in return. I think the artist's urgency is incredibly similar to the tense feeling of Chikushi typeface. If this is a newspaper typeface, I don't think there is a deadline.

Fujita: Personally, I'm glad that "〆 Kiribito 2" used full-width 2. The design of this 2 is unlikely.

Suzuki: I looked great. "2" What should I do?

"Sound" from Chikushi typeface

--When designing a book, do you read the contents first and then design?

Suzuki: I agree. First read through.
As for "deadline book", I need to format it for each chapter, so I will read it in pieces. If anything, rather than making the outside, it's more like working together to make a book.

Koyanagi: There are quite a few readers who really bought the cover design. Thank you. Moreover, it is a design composed of letters. At first glance you can see Fujita's typeface, but when it comes to "cutting books," the design is appealing. Somehow you can hear a voice. Before I visited here today, I asked an employee about the Chikushi typeface, and he said that he heard something.

Fujita: When you make a text in good Mincho style, the text makes a "sound". For example, at a department store, an announcement saying "Thank you for coming to our store today". I imagine that it is MMOKL, but I feel it is a soft and beautiful announcement that flows in high-end department stores. If it was just a Mincho type, it would give a normal person a monotone phonation.

In the world, Kana of metal type in Tsukiji and Hideei has appeared digitally and is overflowing. Unlike the typeface with a thin expression after the phototypesetting era, the feeling of drawing with a brush is useful. I thought that the things that I had drawn with that brush would slowly come to me even during my retirement, but when I meet Sobue-san, they will show me something interesting.
It is the letter "o" in the Meiji era books, but there is no space in the lower left knot. The moment I was shown it, I was wondering if I could make the Japanese syllabary with this fun. I made that idea B type of Tsukushi Old Mincho It was. If I made it anyway, why not make my own version of Tsukiji 36 Po's opponent horse? About B type and C type, when I find something interesting in one character, I derive it from the Japanese syllabary. Therefore, even if there is something like Tsukiji-like or Hideei-like as a feature, if you look closely it is completely different. That's what I do in my case.

Old Styles but modern

--This is Tsukushi Old Gothic.

Suzuki:Tsukushi Old Gothic Feel sharpness. Moreover, it's old Styles, but it looks like a modern book when assembled. I also like the thick Gothic B1, but it feels like I'm fumbling with the typesetting font originally, so I feel that it feels like a hand or a handmade one. We also use B1 when we ask for.
Tsukushi Old Gothic has a feeling of nostalgia and warmth, but it has the same atmosphere as it used to be like the past.

Fujita: Tsukushi Old Gothic also had a designer who was called mellow or mature.

The important thing is "readability" rather than readability.

Koyanagi: What I have always thought about in Chikushi is that it is fashionable and delicate. The readerships of the left and right companies are especially good because there are a lot of people who like books, but what I thought about again is that I feel the movement of the brush. It's cool to look at each character, but if you put them side by side and make them vertical, it's more power. In short, it's easy to read. I was wondering why, but the momentum of the brush remains in the letters. I had such an impression.

Fujita: Mr. Kazuyuki Suzuki is told that "Tsukushi's horizontal composition is unique and the best". That's because we are connected. The impression that the other typefaces are neatly aligned in the eyes of the board. It seems that the letters have stopped and there is no cooperation with each other. However, in Tsukushi, you can see the movements linked to each other, so horizontal writing goes smoothly. Of course, there are also preferences, and some people like it and some hate it.

Koyanagi: If the text is a vehicle, it feels as if you are reading it naturally while following it with your eyes. Rather than consciously reading in the brain.

Fujita: I have a typeface for Text, and it's easy to read. But it's an old theory, but the important thing is "reading comfort." If you compare it to clothes, it is more comfortable to wear than easy to wear. To read is an act in which the line of sight traces the "line". There is an uneven "resistance" in the shape of the letters. Whether or not the "resistance" is irresistible, pleasant or unpleasant, decides whether or not to use the Text Mincho body.

When I write a long novel with a wide-spread newspaper typeface, I get tired of the sight. More specifically, the reason why Ming Dynasty is chosen as the long sentence rather than Gothic is because the design of "Kanji" and "Kana" is completely different only in Mincho. All other typefaces have the same touch design. That's why I'm tired of vision when it comes to feature films. That's why only Mincho can read a 300-page long novel without getting tired. Because the kanji and "kana" are different, there is a change and I never get tired. Chikushi has designed a kana design that gives a comfortable reading rhythm because of the kana design in which the speed of movement of the brush is visible.

Koyanagi: Kana and Kana are completely different. Kana is more brush-like. Hiragana has no meaning in Japanese, so you should just read it. Kanji has a meaning, so slow it down for just a few seconds. That's what you see in the typeface. I think it is calculated and made.

Fujita: By verifying the readability, I will repeat reading after forming many times.
I focused on the readability rather than the readability when reading. As for readability, it is easy to read what you have seen most. Familiar ones are the easiest to read.

--Are you aware of the "writing brush" of the typeface even when binding?

Suzuki: Text, just as I was told, I am conscious of the comfortable reading. Readability is functional. More specifically, I think it has a function that makes it easy to read when it is in typeface.
I don't know if it's a good way to sit down, but I'm trying to verify whether it's good to sit down by changing the typeface on the same page.
At the finish of the last design, I always do work to adjust the space between characters, but when I try to fill in the characters in the middle of the night at this point, it's true that Chikushi is a series of individual characters, and I get a feeling that they fit together. Each character of Tsukushi Antique Mincho is also completed with a cool character, but when you are packing the characters, you can get a great pleasure. I think that there is such comfort, including the feeling. It seems that the margins are calculated including the space between characters.

Koyanagi: The margins are also cool.

Fujita: The design of Mincho Katakana is generally a little to the right. However, that is the range that most people are unaware of. Tsukushi Mincho is a design that goes up about +2 degrees. When the effects of the two degrees are combined horizontally, it is comfortable because the ripples help the line of sight lightly. Like Kanji, Chikushi values the momentum of the characters while maintaining the uniformity of the space. If only the uniformity of the space is emphasized and there is no momentum in the characters, it will not be interesting at all. It's just serious.

In pursuit of such fun that is everyday but never boring

Fujita: From now on, Tsukushi Antique Mincho, Tsukushi Antique Gothic Will increase the weight family and make even the Heavy.

Suzuki: I am glad that Gothic and Mincho have Heavy weight. When I'm looking for a really thick typeface, I don't have much, so I try to write my own.
For example, the horizontal bar is very thin and the vertical bar is extremely thick. So I'll do my best to write.

Fujita: In the old days, from the middle of the phototype era, there were only thin items to extra large, and now there was only E weight. With the advent of "Gonna-U", was there such a thick typeface in the world? Became. And the age of weight U is coming. However, from around 2000, using thicker and thicker ones is a design that was in the days of fathers and mothers. Then, the trend is to use only medium and thin typefaces.
That's why I'm trying to make another ultra ultra era.
In those times, a simple Gothic called "Gonna" was used to build the era, but I want to develop it in the old modern tomorrow morning.
If something is popular, the thick one will be succeeded, and you will be able to see the thick one without discomfort. I want to do that in a few years.

Koyanagi: Is there any reason for that? Thick fashion was popular in the 90's, thin fashion was popular in the 2000's, and fat again.

Fujita: The trend of clothes is thicker, thinner, longer, shorter and so on, spiraling up in a circle. I feel that the era of Heavy typeface has arrived in front of me. I would like to become a central typeface.

The binding has three elements. Pictures, illustrations and letters. Sometimes it's just text, sometimes it's just a photo. Characters carry one-third of that. In that kind of place, I think it's nice to see more variations available.

It's not fun to make mechanical things.
The style of the Mincho type was established by certain rules in the Meiji era. Tsukushi Antique Mincho and Q Mincho are interesting and fresh is that there are many parts that break the rules.

Suzuki: I searched for the perfect balance, finally the typeface was completed, I could see the characters like that conflict, and even when I usually use it, there are things that I can feel the background, I am attracted There is something.
There was a story that it's not good with air, but when I am binding myself, the book itself is a kind of extension of everyday life in a sense, but I have it without getting tired There is also a feeling that it is troublesome if you are too familiar with it, so I think that there is something interesting when I explored between them, and the part I am working on as one of my tasks is I was able to sympathize with it very much.

Suzuki: This book is, Chikushimaru Gothic However, it is based on the corner of a radio program that introduced a sad episode with a friend whose content was estranged. The radio program itself is a very broken piece, so I'll try to cherish the broken pieces as well. Even if it's too crushed, it's very difficult to balance. That's why I chose Chikushi Maru Gothic, which is Maru Gothic but also looks like Mincho. I thought that the typeface expressed such difficulties and nuances.

Fujita: Bundaira Ginza uses Gothic as its own typeface, so I thought Chikushimaru Gothic was unpopular. I wondered if it would be better if it was a little more broken. Is it a little too serious?

Suzuki: That's not true. I often use Chikushi Maru Gothic in the Text, and especially with thin weights, editors are happy that it is unlikely.

Fujita: Do you use a thin guy in the Text?

Suzuki: Text and the Heading of intermediate long, slightly longer sentence and Heading I will use in or was.

Nobody refuses to read. That's why it becomes a book open to women

Koyanagi: There was a story that you compared to a woman in Mr. Fujita's story, but the font that women prefer and the font that men prefer are different, I feel that it is very different, and I feel that Chikushi typeface is a typeface that women love very much But what about the reality? Are you aware of that?

Fujita: No, I haven't made it so much for women and men. However, Chikushi seems to have a human skin feel, whether it's tomorrow morning or Gothic.
When I first made the Tsukushimaru Gothic, I first saw the scene where it was used in a leaflet of high-end kitchen utensils. Oh, I thought it fits this kind of thing.
It's kitchenware, so it's something women see. Unlike traditional Maru Gothic, it's not just for children, but for adults as well. I don't have such a concept when I'm making it.

Koyanagi: Tsukushi Mincho, Tsutomu Toda is often used as a human document, but if it is another typeface, it will be a research book of my uncle's industry, but if Tsukushi Mincho is used, it will be used by women as well. Is it an open paper?

Suzuki: It really feels open to women.

Fujita: Until now, Honran Mincho L was used, but now it is Tsukushi Mincho. How will it change? Dr. Uncle will be a female doctor. He told me that it's Chikushi because it's an era when women advance. Sobue.

Suzuki: I think there is a certain feeling that no one will reject the person reading the book.

Koyanagi: When I was thinking about the readership when making a book, I had been thinking about asking Suzuki for the design, what kind of table of contents, etc. I felt that I really had to think in stages.
According to the story so far, Mr. Fujita is a writer. Is it an artist?

Fujita: I think. I wonder if all the people who make Mincho body within the world's default route.
I want to make Mincho and Gothic with a design that will be very attractive, and will make you lovable.

Koyanagi: The typeface has the power to attract people's hearts, and the binding also has that power.

Suzuki: When I ask an illustrator for an illustration, I don't want this touch as a superficial expression. I have two indicators. Because I want to shape it in a place that is not superficial. Even when I used Mr. Fujita's typeface, I felt that it was quite similar to that feeling.
When I feel that something in the shape that I feel is close to what I say in the book, I think I should choose it accordingly.