A typeface creator, a Type Designers, a typeface user, a binding house, and a seller, an editor.
Chikako Suzuki, who is a bookmaker such as "Ikirimoto" and "Moneybook", whose bookbinding has been very talked about, Manabu Koyanagi of the publishing company of the right and left, and the Type Designers who is the creator of Chikushi typeface. Shigenobu Fujita.
We have realized a three-way conversation in different positions, which we met mainly in the Chikushi typeface.

Left: Manabu Koyanagi
Born in Hokkaido in 1958. After graduating from university, he joined Shinshokan and was the editor-in-chief of "Dance Magazine" and the deputy editor of the thought magazine "Great Voyage".
After leaving the company, he was the editor-in-chief of the quarterly "d / SIGN". In 2005, he established the left and right companies and continues to the present.
From 2006 to 2010, he was in charge of the "selling books" section in the Asahi Shimbun book review section.
His book is "A book that makes Kenji Miyazawa so interesting" (Chukei Publishing).
Right: Chikako Suzuki
graphic designer.
Born in 1983. Graduated from Musashino Art University, Department of Design Information.
Enrolled in Bunpei Ginza since 2007 and has been freelance since 2015.
Engaged in design work such as binding.
Middle: Shigenobu Fujita
Born in Fukuoka Prefecture in 1957. Graduated from Chikuyo Gakuen High School Design Department.
Joined Shaken Character Design Department of Phototypesetting Machine Co., Ltd. in 1975.
Fontworks Inc. in 1998 and developed many typefaces including Tsukushi typeface.
In 2016, appeared on NHK "Professional Work Style".
Received the 2010 Tokyo TDC Award. Received the Tokyo TDC Award 2018 Type Design Award.

The encounter was "Tsukushi Mincho may not be suitable for novels."

--Please tell us about the encounters of the three people.
Fujita: I was with Mr. Koyanagi, who was the editor-in-chief of the quarterly "d/SIGN", at the time of interviewing Tsutomu Toda in No9. Koyanagi-san said on the way back to the station after the interview. Tsukushi Mincho L It's a perfect fit for this book! However, the word "But it's not suitable for novels!" has always been in my head.
In November of last year, a Fontworks Event "Moji Fes." was held for two days in Shibuya, and I was able to meet for the first time in over ten years because the left and right company was Shibuya. At that time, Mr. Suzuki, who is using a lot of Tsukushi typeface, came out and I came to this talk to meet him someday and listen.
Koyanagi: Did you say that? You said (laughs). Thank you for that time.

Fujita: Nice to meet you, Mr. Suzuki. That's right. Through Chikushi you can meet many people. I'm really happy.
Suzuki: Yes. Nice to meet you. However, I have been taking good care of the Tsukushi typeface for a long time. I Bunpei Ginza It's about the time I first started to go to.
Tsukushi Mincho alien nature of LB
Tsukushi Mincho has an image of L, but is it LB instead of L?
Suzuki: Text but because taught typefaces from where is I think quite different by the designer's, Yadorikifuji (Bunpei Mr.) is actually very Tsukushi Mincho LB I loved so much, so I learned to write the Text at Tsukushi Mincho LB.
At that time, Mr. Yoroto was making his own cross-type analysis table with typefaces distributed, and he always talked about how exquisitely balanced Tsukushi Mincho was made. I remember that very much.
Even now, of course, Tsukushi Mincho LB is a typeface that I feel very deep about, and it is a typeface that has a great presence.

Fujita: The LB is black, and because the horizontal image is thicker, the horizontal line does not fly even if it is outlined. But originally, I think it's just LB, which is fine. However, if you suddenly put out this as a normal weight L, a different feeling would appear in a general sense, so I decided to release L as a normal L and release it with a weight of LB. I personally like LB.

Suzuki-san: If I had to choose between L and LB, I would overwhelmingly only use LB. I use LB as Text text for humanities documents. Compared to other fonts, the Weight doesn't seem to be well balanced.
Fujita: Mr. Sobue (Shin) is like that too. He's LB, not L.
When I was at Sha-Ken around 1975, I was impressed by the Honran Mincho L, which was very modern. It was the complete opposite of rural customs and traditions, and was very urban. It was dry and the relationships were straightforward. Honran Mincho didn't have that rural feel, it was very urban. It was L, but the automatic machines at Sha-Ken at the time made the horizontal lines easy to skip, so they were made thicker. Depending on the print, it looked like a thin gothic with scales even though it was a Mincho typeface. In particular, the horizontal lines of the old Sha-Ken version of ILM, Iwata Mincho, were intentionally made thicker. I really liked that feeling. I thought that if I ever had the chance to make something like that, I would like to make something like that. So Tsukushi Mincho was my own reproduction of that kind of thing.
I was talking about this to Yorifuji-san too. "And there's one that's even tighter, I'm thinking about developing that." He said, "That sounds interesting. Please make it." Later, the result was TsukuAntique Mincho.
Recently, fonts designed in a style similar to Tsukushi typefaces, "Mincho typefaces with a thin Gothic look and scales," have become more common. Sobue-san told me, "You made the thin Mincho typeface, which has no difference in Weight between the vertical and horizontal strokes, popular."
Thin Mincho fonts with little difference between vertical and horizontal strokes exude intelligence. I think Tsukushi Mincho L and LB look like that. In contrast, Tsukushi Old Mincho R has a clear difference in Weight between vertical and horizontal strokes. It exudes intelligence as well as vulgar sexiness.
The sense of distance from the reader is just right regardless of style.

Fujita: As Mr. Koyanagi once told me, Tsukushi Mincho is more suitable for academic papers than novels. That's why I developed Tsukushi B Mincho, thinking it would be necessary for novels as well.
When we released TsukuAntique Mincho, I was worried that it would be used in Text, but there are still some hurdles to overcome.
Suzuki-san: Yes, that's right. I use it a lot for Heading and stuff.
Fujita: Yes, they can be used on the cover, preface, or afterword, but they are rarely used in the main Text.
Koyanagi: For books with a certain level of sophistication, I think Tsukushi is the typeface for books written by book lovers. The readership of Sososha is made up of a large number of book lovers, so I think Tsukushi is a perfect fit for them.
Suzuki-san: The sense of distance between the reader and the author is just right. I think there is an appropriate sense of distance that can be read, regardless of the style of writing.
TsukuAntique Mincho has great visual power.

--Both TsukuAntique Mincho and Tsukushi Q Mincho are used quite a lot.
Suzuki-san: When I'm designing a book, I almost always use Tsukushi Mincho or TsukuAntique Mincho. TsukuAntique Mincho is visually strong, so when I switch to TsukuAntique Mincho, it seems to work perfectly. That's the kind of power it has. I rely on it a little too much sometimes (laughs).

Suzuki-san: As for "Short Stories of the Seasonal Almanac," it's an anthology, so each story is written by a different author. Also, because it's a seasonal almanac, everyone writes according to a seasonal theme. That's how the front cover is made, but when I work on book design, I start with Text before the cover, so when I made this front cover later, the editor was pleased that it matched the theme very well.
Fujita: That's great. So, from the perspective of someone who makes fonts, I'm really curious about what typefaces were used here in the days when there were no TsukuAntique Mincho or Tsukushi Q Mincho. In that case, did they use the same typeface as the content?
Suzuki: In that sense, different designers may have different ways of thinking, but Text is often constructed in Text way, so one approach is to unify the typeface of Text and the typeface on the title page.
In the case of the front page, it is the face of the whole book, so when I bind it, I often match the font to the cover. Speaking of the front page. In that case, what kind of characters would have been on the cover in the days before TsukuAntique Mincho... it's difficult. Perhaps, in the case of this book, if there is no font, there is the option of creating the characters and lettering myself, so I just thought that if it was just the front page and the cover, I might do that.
Considering that, I was attracted to the fact that it has such powerful visual appeal.

Suzuki: For "Dancing constellation", I want to use this "Ru" from Chikuushi Q Mincho. This was completely decided in the form of "ru".

I saw the character "〆" and chose TsukuAntique Mincho.

Fujita: The "Deadline Book" was quite shocking. The contents are exposed on the surface, aren't they? This technique is the Sugiura (Kohei) technique, isn't it? He used photographs and illustrations. This one has the text inside exposed on the surface, which I thought was quite interesting.
Suzuki-san: During our meeting, the editor said that he wanted to include the line, "I just can't write it...", but he also said that there were other interesting words in the story, so the first thing that came to mind was that it would be more interesting if those words were at the forefront.
Sometimes, by turning the words themselves into visual pictures, you can give the words more meaning, and this was one such challenge.
As for this deadline book, there were already a lot of words coming out of the writers, so that in itself was powerful.
As for the font, I saw the character "〆" and chose TsukuAntique Mincho. I thought "This is it!"
Fujita: Surprisingly, the character 〆 isn't very interesting in any of the typefaces.
Koyanagi: There's quite a big difference depending on the font.
Fujita: When I was designing, if I designed normally, it would end up like this. But I thought it wouldn't be interesting. When I see "〆" written in brush strokes, it looks cool. I wondered if I could make it look this cool in Mincho font.
The "〆" in other fonts has little movement. Tsukushi font is more about showing the movement of the hand through the strokes, which I think makes it look cool.

Koyanagi: Mr. Suzuki's suggestion for the "end book" is designed with a lot of words from the artist in return. I think the artist's urgency is incredibly similar to the tense feeling of Chikushi typeface. If this is a newspaper typeface, I don't think there is a deadline.
Fujita: Personally, I'm glad that "〆 Kiribito 2" used full-width 2. The design of this 2 is unlikely.
Suzuki: I looked great. "2" What should I do?
"Sound" from Chikushi typeface

--When designing a book, do you read the contents first and then design?
Suzuki: I agree. First read through.
As for "deadline book", I need to format it for each chapter, so I will read it in pieces. If anything, rather than making the outside, it's more like working together to make a book.
Koyanagi: There are quite a few readers who really bought the cover design. Thank you. Moreover, it is a design composed of letters. At first glance you can see Fujita's typeface, but when it comes to "cutting books," the design is appealing. Somehow you can hear a voice. Before I visited here today, I asked an employee about the Chikushi typeface, and he said that he heard something.
Fujita: When you make a text in good Mincho style, the text makes a "sound". For example, at a department store, an announcement saying "Thank you for coming to our store today". I imagine that it is MMOKL, but I feel it is a soft and beautiful announcement that flows in high-end department stores. If it was just a Mincho type, it would give a normal person a monotone phonation.
In the world, Kana of metal type in Tsukiji and Hideei has appeared digitally and is overflowing. Unlike the typeface with a thin expression after the phototypesetting era, the feeling of drawing with a brush is useful. I thought that the things that I had drawn with that brush would slowly come to me even during my retirement, but when I meet Sobue-san, they will show me something interesting.
It is the letter "o" in the Meiji era books, but there is no space in the lower left knot. The moment I was shown it, I was wondering if I could make the Japanese syllabary with this fun. I made that idea B type of Tsukushi Old Mincho It was. If I made it anyway, why not make my own version of Tsukiji 36 Po's opponent horse? About B type and C type, when I find something interesting in one character, I derive it from the Japanese syllabary. Therefore, even if there is something like Tsukiji-like or Hideei-like as a feature, if you look closely it is completely different. That's what I do in my case.


Create the Japanese syllabary from the "o" in the books of the Meiji era (Tsukushi B Old Mincho)

Old Styles but modern
--This is Tsukushi Old Gothic.
Suzuki:Tsukushi Old Gothic Feel sharpness. Moreover, it's old Styles, but it looks like a modern book when assembled. I also like the thick Gothic B1, but it feels like I'm fumbling with the typesetting font originally, so I feel that it feels like a hand or a handmade one. We also use B1 when we ask for.
Tsukushi Old Gothic has a feeling of nostalgia and warmth, but it has the same atmosphere as it used to be like the past.
Fujita: Tsukushi Old Gothic also had a designer who was called mellow or mature.

The important thing is "readability" rather than readability.
Koyanagi: What I have always thought about in Chikushi is that it is fashionable and delicate. The readerships of the left and right companies are especially good because there are a lot of people who like books, but what I thought about again is that I feel the movement of the brush. It's cool to look at each character, but if you put them side by side and make them vertical, it's more power. In short, it's easy to read. I was wondering why, but the momentum of the brush remains in the letters. I had such an impression.
Fujita: Mr. Kazuyuki Suzuki is told that "Tsukushi's horizontal composition is unique and the best". That's because we are connected. The impression that the other typefaces are neatly aligned in the eyes of the board. It seems that the letters have stopped and there is no cooperation with each other. However, in Tsukushi, you can see the movements linked to each other, so horizontal writing goes smoothly. Of course, there are also preferences, and some people like it and some hate it.
Koyanagi: If the text is a vehicle, it feels as if you are reading it naturally while following it with your eyes. Rather than consciously reading in the brain.
Fujita: I have a typeface for Text, and it's easy to read. But it's an old theory, but the important thing is "reading comfort." If you compare it to clothes, it is more comfortable to wear than easy to wear. To read is an act in which the line of sight traces the "line". There is an uneven "resistance" in the shape of the letters. Whether or not the "resistance" is irresistible, pleasant or unpleasant, decides whether or not to use the Text Mincho body.
When I write a long novel with a wide-spread newspaper typeface, I get tired of the sight. More specifically, the reason why Ming Dynasty is chosen as the long sentence rather than Gothic is because the design of "Kanji" and "Kana" is completely different only in Mincho. All other typefaces have the same touch design. That's why I'm tired of vision when it comes to feature films. That's why only Mincho can read a 300-page long novel without getting tired. Because the kanji and "kana" are different, there is a change and I never get tired. Chikushi has designed a kana design that gives a comfortable reading rhythm because of the kana design in which the speed of movement of the brush is visible.
Koyanagi: Kana and Kana are completely different. Kana is more brush-like. Hiragana has no meaning in Japanese, so you should just read it. Kanji has a meaning, so slow it down for just a few seconds. That's what you see in the typeface. I think it is calculated and made.
Fujita: By verifying the readability, I will repeat reading after forming many times.
I focused on the readability rather than the readability when reading. As for readability, it is easy to read what you have seen most. Familiar ones are the easiest to read.

--When you design a book, do you take into consideration the "strokes" of the typeface?
Suzuki-san: As for Text composition, I do exactly what you said, and I try to make it comfortable to read. Being easy to read is a functional thing. To put it more simply, I think that the moment it is made into a typeface, it has the function of being easy to read.
I don't know if it's appropriate to say that it sits well, but we do test whether the font sits well by changing the font on the same page.
When I'm finishing the final design, I always adjust the spacing between characters, and when I'm thinking about how to narrow the characters down in the middle of the night, I can definitely feel that with Tsukushi, each character gradually connects together and fits perfectly into place. Each character in TsukuAntique Mincho is cool and complete, and I get a great sense of pleasure when narrowing the characters down. I think there's a sense of comfort in that, too. It's like the margins and the spacing between characters are all calculated.
Koyanagi: The white space is cool too.
Fujita: Ming Kana characters are generally designed to slope slightly to the right. However, most people don't notice this. Tsukushi Mincho is designed to slope even further to the right by about +2 degrees. When typeset horizontally, the effect of those two degrees creates a ripple-like effect that helps the eye move smoothly and lightly, which is very comfortable. As with kanji, Tsukushi values the momentum of the characters while maintaining uniformity of space. If you only focus on uniformity of space and there is no momentum in the characters, it's not interesting at all. It's just too serious, isn't it?

In pursuit of such fun that is everyday but never boring
Fujita: From now on, we will be increasing the weight family of TsukuAntique Mincho and TsukuAntique Gothic, and will also be making Heavy.
Suzuki-san: I'm glad that both Gothic and Mincho fonts have Heavy weights. When I'm looking for a really bold font, it's hard to find one, so I end up making my own.
For example, I have almost no knowledge of Mincho fonts with extremely thin horizontal bars and extremely thick vertical bars. So I thought I would try my best to create the characters.

Fujita: In the past, until the middle of the phototypesetting era, there were only thin to extra thick, what would now be called E weight. Then, with the appearance of "Gonna-U", people wondered, "Was there such a thick typeface in the world?" And then the era of weight U came. However, from around 2000, people started to think that using thicker types was a design from the era of our parents. And then, the trend started to shift to using only medium-thick and thin typefaces.
That's why I want to create an era of super ultra thick hair once again.
That era was defined by a simple Gothic font called "Gona," but I want to develop it in the old modern Ming style.
When something becomes popular, thick hair is passed on and people start to see thick hair without feeling out of place. I'd like to see that happen in a few years.
Koyanagi: Is there a reason for that? Thick hair was popular in the 90s, thin hair was popular in the 2000s, and now thick hair is back again.
Fujita: Clothing trends are becoming thicker, thinner, longer, shorter, and so on, spiraling upwards and rotating in circles. I feel like the arrival of the era of Heavy typefaces is right before our eyes. I hope that this typeface will become the central one.
There are three elements to a bookbinding: photos, illustrations, and text. Sometimes there's just text, sometimes just photos. Text accounts for one third of the total. I think people will be happy to see the variety of options available in that area.
It's not fun to make mechanical things.
In the Meiji era, the style of the Ming font was established according to certain rules. The reason why TsukuAntique Mincho and Q Mincho are interesting and fresh is because there are many parts that break those rules.
Suzuki-san: They searched for the perfect balance, and when the typeface was finally completed, I could sense that conflict in the letters and the background to it, which is something that I find very appealing.
You mentioned that you can't just let the atmosphere take over, and when I design books myself, I think that in a way a book is like an extension of our daily lives, but I also want people to keep it and not get bored of it, and at the same time, I don't want it to become too familiar, so I think there's something interesting to be found in finding that balance, and as this is something I'm working on as one of my own challenges, I could really relate to that.
Suzuki: This book is, Chikushimaru Gothic However, it is based on the corner of a radio program that introduced a sad episode with a friend whose content was estranged. The radio program itself is a very broken piece, so I'll try to cherish the broken pieces as well. Even if it's too crushed, it's very difficult to balance. That's why I chose Chikushi Maru Gothic, which is Maru Gothic but also looks like Mincho. I thought that the typeface expressed such difficulties and nuances.
Fujita: Bundaira Ginza uses Gothic as its own typeface, so I thought Chikushimaru Gothic was unpopular. I wondered if it would be better if it was a little more broken. Is it a little too serious?
Suzuki: That's not true. I often use Chikushi Maru Gothic in the Text, and especially with thin weights, editors are happy that it is unlikely.
Fujita: Do you use a thin guy in the Text?
Suzuki: Text and the Heading of intermediate long, slightly longer sentence and Heading I will use in or was.

Nobody refuses to read. That's why it becomes a book open to women

Koyanagi: There was a story that you compared to a woman in Mr. Fujita's story, but the font that women prefer and the font that men prefer are different, I feel that it is very different, and I feel that Chikushi typeface is a typeface that women love very much But what about the reality? Are you aware of that?
Fujita: No, I haven't made it so much for women and men. However, Chikushi seems to have a human skin feel, whether it's tomorrow morning or Gothic.
When I first made the Tsukushimaru Gothic, I first saw the scene where it was used in a leaflet of high-end kitchen utensils. Oh, I thought it fits this kind of thing.
It's kitchenware, so it's something women see. Unlike traditional Maru Gothic, it's not just for children, but for adults as well. I don't have such a concept when I'm making it.
Koyanagi: Tsukushi Mincho, Tsutomu Toda is often used as a human document, but if it is another typeface, it will be a research book of my uncle's industry, but if Tsukushi Mincho is used, it will be used by women as well. Is it an open paper?
Suzuki: It really feels open to women.
Fujita: Until now, Honran Mincho L was used, but now it is Tsukushi Mincho. How will it change? Dr. Uncle will be a female doctor. He told me that it's Chikushi because it's an era when women advance. Sobue.
Suzuki: I think there is a certain feeling that no one will reject the person reading the book.
Koyanagi: When I was thinking about the readership when making a book, I had been thinking about asking Suzuki for the design, what kind of table of contents, etc. I felt that I really had to think in stages.
According to the story so far, Mr. Fujita is a writer. Is it an artist?
Fujita: I think. I wonder if all the people who make Mincho body within the world's default route.
I want to make Mincho and Gothic with a design that will be very attractive, and will make you lovable.
Koyanagi: The typeface has the power to attract people's hearts, and the binding also has that power.
Suzuki: When I ask an illustrator for an illustration, I don't want this touch as a superficial expression. I have two indicators. Because I want to shape it in a place that is not superficial. Even when I used Mr. Fujita's typeface, I felt that it was quite similar to that feeling.
When I feel that something in the shape that I feel is close to what I say in the book, I think I should choose it accordingly.


Design rough when binding. Roughly share images with editors and illustrators.